Before I start, The first part of this page is the original text explaining my problem with the Doctrine. Sis Felsted responded with a fairly lengthy message attempting to address the issue. For the sake of clarity, all her words will be in the quotes format. I then wrote a response to her message. The first two parts will be in this post. My response will be in part 2. This is not a particularly clean way of handling the content but this is not meant for a general audience so i am not as worried about brevity.
Return to Summary
The quotes from the King Follett Discourse are quoted from a PDF on BYU.edu. The document is The Scriptural Teachings of the Prophet Joesph Smith. It was published in the 1930s by Desert Publishing which is the LDS pet publishing company. Additionally, this talk is quoted multiple times on the LDS website. THis means that LDS content creators read the talk, understood it, and actively believes it an accurate statement of doctrine.
http://scriptures.byu.edu/tpjs/STPJS.pdf
My First Message Begins:
While a not deal breaker, the flesh alone is simply a technicality. It is the further claim that God the Father was once a mortal and not the fully divine being the bible claims He is and always was. So my main issue rests on the origin of God. I see the progression of God’s road to Godhood as taught by Smith is utterly counter to the bible.
"God himself was once as we are now," The King Follett Discourse
What are we now?
1. Sinful
2. Imperfect
3. Changing
Yet the bible teaches that God does not sin nor does He ever sin. God the Father is Holy. Jesus said “I AM the way,the truth, and the light.” God is the personification of all that is Good. God is Truth. God is Light. God is Good. Sin is by definition anything that does not align with the character and nature of God. God the Father was never a sinful and imperfect man. God does not change nor does He sin or ever sin. God the Father is the same yesterday today and forever.
"it is necessary we should understand the character and being of God and how he came to be so; for I am going to tell you how God came to be God. We have imagined and supposed that God was God from all eternity.22 I will refute that idea" - The King Follett Discourse
He is saying that God was not alway God. He was once something less than He is now. The bible tells me that God has been God from all eternity.
Malachi 3:6 "For I am the LORD, I do not change; Therefore you are not consumed, O sons of Jacob.
Hos 11:8 How shall I give you up, Ephraim? How shall I deliver you, Israel? How shall I make you like Admah? How shall I set you as Zeboim? My heart is turned within Me; My compassion are kindled together.
Hos 11:9 I will not carry out the heat of My anger; I will not return to destroy Ephraim. For I am God and not man, the Holy One in your midst; and I will not enter into the city.
Hos 11:10 They shall walk after Jehovah; He shall roar like a lion. When He shall roar, then the sons shall tremble from the west.
From eternity to eternity he is the same: D&C 76:4
being understood by … his eternal powerand Godhead: Rom. 1:20
I know that God the Father was always God from eternity past to eternity future. Yet the LDS church is iffy on that belief. The idea that "God progression" and improves demands that God at some point existed in a non-perfected Godhood state then progressed into that position. This is in fact what the LDS teaches.
“God was once a man and has progressed to become a God”
http://www.lds.org/manual/teachings-brigham-young/chapter-4?lang=eng
While I have not encountered this teaching in the book of Mormon itself, I will never accept the doctrine of God becoming God because it conflicts with the bible. You can argue until you are blue in the face that this progression makes God the Father more relate-able and caring. You can give me a million reasons why this doctrine is good. However:
Some believe or conceive the idea that to know God would lessen him in our estimation; but I can say that for me to understand any principle or being, on earth or in heaven, it does not lessen its true value to me, but on the contrary, it increases it; and the more I can know of God, the dearer and more precious he is to me, and the more exalted are my feelings towards him (DBY, 18).
http://www.lds.org/manual/teachings-brigham-young/chapter-4?lang=eng
and
“God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth”James 4:24
I will never accept this doctrine of“God was not always God,” not because I am stubborn or because I am too prideful to believe that I am wrong. God the Father has revealed His nature and seeks worshipers who will worship Him in truth. I will not exchange the Truth of God’s nature for a comforting lie. This doctrine is wrong.
Felsted's Response:
Return to Summary
The quotes from the King Follett Discourse are quoted from a PDF on BYU.edu. The document is The Scriptural Teachings of the Prophet Joesph Smith. It was published in the 1930s by Desert Publishing which is the LDS pet publishing company. Additionally, this talk is quoted multiple times on the LDS website. THis means that LDS content creators read the talk, understood it, and actively believes it an accurate statement of doctrine.
http://scriptures.byu.edu/tpjs/STPJS.pdf
My First Message Begins:
While a not deal breaker, the flesh alone is simply a technicality. It is the further claim that God the Father was once a mortal and not the fully divine being the bible claims He is and always was. So my main issue rests on the origin of God. I see the progression of God’s road to Godhood as taught by Smith is utterly counter to the bible.
"God himself was once as we are now," The King Follett Discourse
What are we now?
1. Sinful
2. Imperfect
3. Changing
Yet the bible teaches that God does not sin nor does He ever sin. God the Father is Holy. Jesus said “I AM the way,the truth, and the light.” God is the personification of all that is Good. God is Truth. God is Light. God is Good. Sin is by definition anything that does not align with the character and nature of God. God the Father was never a sinful and imperfect man. God does not change nor does He sin or ever sin. God the Father is the same yesterday today and forever.
"it is necessary we should understand the character and being of God and how he came to be so; for I am going to tell you how God came to be God. We have imagined and supposed that God was God from all eternity.22 I will refute that idea" - The King Follett Discourse
He is saying that God was not alway God. He was once something less than He is now. The bible tells me that God has been God from all eternity.
Malachi 3:6 "For I am the LORD, I do not change; Therefore you are not consumed, O sons of Jacob.
Hos 11:8 How shall I give you up, Ephraim? How shall I deliver you, Israel? How shall I make you like Admah? How shall I set you as Zeboim? My heart is turned within Me; My compassion are kindled together.
Hos 11:9 I will not carry out the heat of My anger; I will not return to destroy Ephraim. For I am God and not man, the Holy One in your midst; and I will not enter into the city.
Hos 11:10 They shall walk after Jehovah; He shall roar like a lion. When He shall roar, then the sons shall tremble from the west.
From eternity to eternity he is the same: D&C 76:4
being understood by … his eternal powerand Godhead: Rom. 1:20
I know that God the Father was always God from eternity past to eternity future. Yet the LDS church is iffy on that belief. The idea that "God progression" and improves demands that God at some point existed in a non-perfected Godhood state then progressed into that position. This is in fact what the LDS teaches.
“God was once a man and has progressed to become a God”
http://www.lds.org/manual/teachings-brigham-young/chapter-4?lang=eng
While I have not encountered this teaching in the book of Mormon itself, I will never accept the doctrine of God becoming God because it conflicts with the bible. You can argue until you are blue in the face that this progression makes God the Father more relate-able and caring. You can give me a million reasons why this doctrine is good. However:
Some believe or conceive the idea that to know God would lessen him in our estimation; but I can say that for me to understand any principle or being, on earth or in heaven, it does not lessen its true value to me, but on the contrary, it increases it; and the more I can know of God, the dearer and more precious he is to me, and the more exalted are my feelings towards him (DBY, 18).
http://www.lds.org/manual/teachings-brigham-young/chapter-4?lang=eng
and
“God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth”James 4:24
I will never accept this doctrine of“God was not always God,” not because I am stubborn or because I am too prideful to believe that I am wrong. God the Father has revealed His nature and seeks worshipers who will worship Him in truth. I will not exchange the Truth of God’s nature for a comforting lie. This doctrine is wrong.
Felsted's Response:
Okay. Here it is. It is 15 pages all together...but it's highly spaced out so it probably would be significantly less.So here you go Josh! I know that you have waited long for this and you areanxious to see what I have come up with.During our discussions I have often thought that your responses have revealed why men have succeeded in inventing 2800 different versions of what "they think"God is, and what the scriptures say according to the "color of their ownglasses". What do I mean by the color of ones own glasses? It means we believe what we have been taught most of our life whether true or false from a young age. There is a word for this. It's called, Tradition! Let?s take Fred for example. Fred was raised as a Jew with Jewish beliefs. Jews teach God is a mystical spirit that can exist in any form. Appearing as a man is only one of Gods magical tricks. They see this great all knowing being as an indescribable thing, or a blob of energy if you will; anything but an actual physical Heavenly Father with a body like Jesus or us! Further they simply dismiss Jesus as an imposter. As such they simply discount all the rest of the Biblical teaching, and rest all their belief on a few specific scriptures having in effect rendered the balance of scripture void, or of no value.
Sadly it isn't just the Jews that have done this. We also have the corrupt effects of the creed of Nicia instigated by Constantine who was a Marist. What is a Marist? Marisisum by 300 AD had become a third form of religion. It was a strange combinatiin of Peganism and chirstian beliefs. They believd in only one God, but who did dewl in stautes no less.Constantine new Christianity was taking over in popularity. As such he dideverything in his power to pervert the teachings of Jesus Christ, and theProphets including removing or hiding many of the ancient books such as the Book of Enoch, and 2 other books written by Phillip and Judas who were Apostles, and actual brothers of Jesus Christ. Constantine is responsible for changing baptism from immersion to sprinkling. Baptiso, is a Hebrew word which means to be immersed. Go figure? He is responsible for the introduction of statues into the Catholic church. He invented the current Trinity idea because he was a follower of Maristism. As such neither of these groups believe the simple most consistent common theme of scripture wherein Jesus, and all Prophets refer to God as our actual Heavenly Father, and we are our his literal offspring children and family, and Jesus Christ is his first offspring created Son, and only His only begotten Son in the flesh. As such any translation of the Bible could only have been done according to thebeliefs of the translators that prevailed at the time of any translation. Noman could have understood the true nature of God if no man had been allowed to know or think or learn other than what was taught and promoted by the Jews, Constantine, and the Catholic church at the time. Even worse, this would be an hipocracy of what Jesus taught when we repeatedly said over and over, " I do not honor myself, but to my Father who sent me, to him I give all glory and honor".The simple truth about our heavenly father is so obvious to those that trulyhave an open mind and are willing to ask in prayer for confirmation of the Holy Ghost. Let me demonstrate just a few really easy truths that are indisputable. I have learned that though I will teach and demonstrate truths in this email. The Holy spirit is the one that will testify what I am teaching is true, and not just because I said it.
1. The baptism of Jesus. He is in the water with his cousin John. A loudvoice is heard in the heavens saying, "This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased". So if we apply the mystical version of God put forth by Constantine, called the trinity in this scriptural scene, this was then nothing more than a demonstration of the trinical, mystical, plurality of God? Let me explain, He God, existing now as Jesus, tricked the saints who were there with Him, throwing his voice in a ventriloquist fashion into the heavens while, yet standing in the water, and then giving all those watching a light show causing his own spirit to jump out of his body and descend upon himself, so that he can prove his plurality? Is that what this baptism was all about? Some actually believe such stories.Or is it the real truth as simple and beautiful as written? Heavenly Fathersimply announces to those present how pleased he is with His literal firstcreated Son Jesus Christ who; Is Heavenly Fathers ordained co-creator from the beginning, (See Eph. 3:9), and has paved the way by setting an example for all those who believe on his name to be forgiven of their sins by following Him into the waters of Baptism, by those who are ordained with the authority of God to do so.2. Let's move on to the mount of transfiguration where Jesus has brought hisApostles to teach them. While there praying the heavens are opened, and Jesus and the Apostle record having seen the Father sitting on his thrown. Are we to believe Jesus again wanted to show his tricky plurality by kneeling with the Apostles in prayer and then throwing his image into His thrown on high in the vision He made of Himself? Or is this again a simple scene where Jesus wanted to show the Apostles that he was sent by his Father who is also their true Heavenly Father and that He listens to our prayers because he loves us all. Which one fits the true nature of God? Which explanation testifies of truth?3. Let's move to the garden of Gethsemane. Jesus in kneeling in prayer again, he says, "Father if it be possible remove this cup from me, but nevertheless, not my will, but Thy will be done". Are we to believe that Jesus being nothing but the plurality of God himself, wanted to be alone so no one would hear his blasphemies as he pretended to pray to himself? Really? Or again is the truth as obvious and beautiful as the scene explains. Jesus, the Son of Heavenly Father wanted one last time in the depths of despaired to ask his Father if there was not any other way to accomplish this great atonement he was asked to perform. The truth is obvious!
4. Now let's review the scene at the cross just before Jesus dies. He says to his Father in Prayer, "Father forgive them for they no not what they do". Then, "Into Thy hands I commend my soul". Are we to believe Jesus intentionally deceived his family and followers who were right there atmhis feet listening, wanting them to believe there really was a Heavenly Father while all along this great mystical God was really Himself? Why would a loving heavenly father go through such attempts to decieve? Or again, is the real truth of this beautiful scene evidence of a much more simple truth wherein, Jesus the literal Son of God was showing true ultimate forgiveness for his martyrs asking his real Heavenly Father not to judge them because he knew they did not yet understand who he really was, or what they were doing.
5. Now we're at the tomb. Mary Magdeline is at the tomb crying. She found the stone rolled away and Jesus body was gone. She see's a man approaching andasked, "they have taken away my master, and I know not where they have takenhim". Obviously, she doesn't at first recognize the perfected younger looking, unscarred, unbeaten, resurrected body of Jesus she remembered while looking right at him. Jesus responses by saying, "Mary, behold it is I", then responds quickly seeing her anxiousness to touch or hug him, "Touch me not for I have not yet ascended unto my Father". Are we to believe Jesus would go so far to continue this blasphemus charade to deceive even Mary whom he Loved, and was so close too? Isn't the simple truth so obvious? Or, are we to believe or invent another magical explanation of how a mystical plurality of God existed here wherein, Jesus intentionally deceives Mary wanting her to Believe he is Jesus the Son of God, pretending not to have visited his Father when really HE is God the Father? Such notions are ridiculous!
6. When Jesus taught his Deciples to pray. What did he say?"Not my will he done, but Thy will be done". Would Jesus have intentionallydeceived his followers trying to make them believe there was a Heavenly Father when really he is the God the Father and not really his son?
I could go on and on demonstrating how deviously hard other religious leaders have worked to pervert such simple doctrines into mystical magical medevilstories not even a child could understand. Yet Jesus taught "Except ye become as a little child ye can not enter into the Kingdom of God". Isn't the truth simply obvious? Jesus Christ is the literal Son of God! He is the Savior of all God children. He was the first Son creted by God before anything else was created.See John Ch. 17:3-53 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, andJesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavestme to do.5 And now, O Father, GLORIFY THOU ME with THINE OWN SELF with the GLORY I HAD WITH THEE, BEFORE THE WORLD WAS. (New Testament, John, Chapter 17)
Man that's pretty clear! How could Jesus say this when he wasn't glorified the same way as Father? That would make Jesus a liar!
See Col. Ch. 1:12-19.12 Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of theinheritance (the inheritance of being joint heirs with Christ) of the saints inlight: (those who are informed)13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, (from Satan) and hathtranslated us (Jesus has adopted us while on earth) into the kingdom of his dearSon: (the earth is Jesus Christ kingdom until his work is done)14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:(we're are still talking about Jesus here)15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:(Looks just like Father and no doubt the first born creation of all things)16 For by him were all things created, (Jesus was ordained as co creator byFather) that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible,(meaning physical and spiritual) whether they be thrones, or dominions, orprincipalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: (for himmeaning so Jesus could fulfill his ordained glory given him by father).17 And he is before all things, (meaning in the beginning before the world wascreated) and by him all things consist.18 And he is the head of the body, the church: (still talking anout Jesus) whois the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might havethe preeminence. (means all power)19 For it pleased the Father (meaning Heavenly Father) that in him (meaningJesus) should all fulness dwell; (it pleased the Father because he loves todelegate as he watches his Son and children grow and progress.)
There is no doubt all of this was designed and ordained by Heavenly Father long before the earth project began. As such, Jesus not only looks like Father, he was ordained by Father, and made his right hand man in the creation of all things.
See Eph. Ch. 3:9,10.9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from thebeginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by JesusChrist:10 To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly placesmight be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,
No wonder the Jews were confused about who Jehovah was in the old testament. I'm guess according to this scripture it wasn't always clear until now. Thatmust be why the Jews didn't understand it when he said this:
See John Ch. 8:54-59.
54 Jesus answered, If I honour myself, my honour is nothing: it is my Fatherthat honoureth me; of whom ye say, that he is your God:55 Yet ye have not known him; but I know him: and if I should say, I know him not, I shall be a liar like unto you: but I know him, and keep his saying.56 Your father ABRAHAM REJOICED TO SEE MY DAY: and he saw it, and was glad.57 Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham? (Of course he had, he Jesus is Jehovah of the old testament). 58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, Iam. (according to John 17 and Colossians this statement is true).59 Then took they up stones to cast at him: but Jesus hid himself, and went outof the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by.
He and Father not only look similar in Body, mind, and Spirit, but are literally united in all that they do. They never act alone or independent of one another. They, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost, literally have only one purpose as the scriptures, "For this is my work and my Glory, to bring to pass the immortality, and eternal life of man" meaning, all of Gods children. The job of the Holy Spirit or Holy Ghost is clear, he is the third member of the God Head who testifies with our spirits confirming all eternal truths. We have clearly established the Father and Son do not jump in and out of each others bodies in some mystical form. If we are to believe that the use of the word ONE refers to such ridiculous notions then we must consistently apply the same interpretation in every other use. Let me demonstrate:The scriptures say when a man and woman are married they shall become ONE flesh. Are we to believe that means a man and woman literally should exist in one body after marriage such as they would have us believe Heavenly Father and Jesus do? NO! Continuing: Jesus and the Apostles taught that the saints should become ONE in God, Jesus, and one in us together. Are we to believe that Jesus and the Apostles meant we should all jump into each others body Like Heavenly Father and Jesus supposedly do? NO, of course not! Get my point? We have to be consistent when using the word ONE! Now that we have established by overwhelming evidence that the scriptures teach God our Heavelny Father and His Son Jesus Christ are two separate beings whowork together for one purpose just as Jesus described it to John in Ch. 17.
Fred, your upbringing and tradition is what has confused you. Thatsunderstandable! But grabbing for any single scripture in hope of defending life long beliefs while discounting all the rest of scripture is not a defensible practice.There is a reason we say in our articles of faith that we believe the Bible to be the word of God as far as it is translated correctly. It's because, those who translated the ancient scripture more or less admitted they were not certain about each word or phrase they wrote. Read the King James council declaration. These honest men essentially declare they have done their best, but are not sure every word is correct wherein no absolute science or language tables were available at the time. 1500-3000 years after the fact how good would translation be. None of these men clamed to be prophetic? King James appointed 3 different groups of monks who were each given charge to do their best to translate complete independant copies of ancient scrolls. We nowadays call this the Bible. The word Bible was assigned to the translated compiled Book by men not God. That word Bible does not appear anywhere in the ancient writings.Bible is a hebrew word which means simply, "collection of books".Back then, there was no such thing as a Rosetta stone. What is the Rosettastone? Well in the early 1900's a stone was found in Egypt which had 3 ancient languages written on it. Egyptian, Arabic, and Greek or Latin. One story had been written 3 times on the stone in each of the different languages I have described. This was a huge find for mankind. We now had the first reliable table or key that has helped modern day professors of language in translating these 3 ancient languages into English or for that matter any other modern day language. Scholars have since compared the current translations of the Bible with the actual ancient text and have found many errors and or omissions. Luckily, most of the basic message of the Bible is still intact. A new translation using the rosetta stone would be incredibly more accurate. Let me give just a few examples I have discovered.
The word day used in Genesis is incorrect. The correct words should have been "periods of time" not "day". What a difference that would make impacting the Biblical creation story with actual science. Next, when Jesus gave the Apostles the priesthood the Bible says, " and what so ever thou shalt "bind" on earth shall be "bound" in heaven".Well guess what, the Book of Mormon prophets repeated that scripture only they wrote it correctly saying "seal" not "bind". Had the Biblical translators used the Rosetta stone those two errors would not have been written wrong. The Rosetta stone tables say the word should have been "seal" exactly as the prophet Nephi wrote.Those who were given charge by King James to translate admitted they did not all agree with the exact words chosen in the final draft of the Bible. The three councils agreed to place contested words in the text in "italics" so that the world would know what words were possibly incorrect. There are over 26,000 italicized words in the Bible.
How many times do you think a single word change would also have the ability to change the meaning of a sentence or phrase. These are the facts! This isundisputed among Biblical scholars. No wonder there are so many opinions ofwhat the Prophets wrote and what God said or meant. Specifically let's talkabout the one scripture Fred sites wherein it says "For God is a spirit". Would it surprise you that the word "is" is an italicized word meaning it was in dispute by the translators? Using the Rosetta stone the word should have been "has". What a mess this little honest mistake has made in the world of Fred and countless others.
Acts 17:24:26 refers to the children of God as His offspring. Paul was trying to teach the saints in Romans who were pegans or idol worshipers, that God DOES NOT appear within different objects or forms such as statues and idols. Further he explains God has no need to attach himself to or within anything.
24 God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord ofheaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples ( temples here doesn't mean actualtemples or tabernacles it means statues) made with hands;25 Neither is worshipped with men?s hands, as though he needed any thing, seeinghe giveth to all life, and breath, and all things;26 And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face ofthe earth, (the word blood is used here signifiing he Heavenly Father designedour physical bosies not just our spirits) and hath determined the times beforeappointed, ( we were all appointed to come to earth in the pre-existent spiritworld, long before we were born) and the bounds of their habitation; ( we knewwhere, when, and to whom, and the place we would be born including oursurroundings, friends and family).27 That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and findhim, though he be not far from every one of us:28 For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your ownpoets have said, For we are also his offspring. (this sentence is saying God isour father, we are his children, and thus we are part of him and He is part ofus, our creation, life and existence was designed by him both physically andspiritually).29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that theGodhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man?s device.(Now we see more clearly what the word temple above was referring to in thiscase).30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all menevery where to repent: (Repent of what? The foolish traditions of the Jews whichhad perverted their belief, and undertstanding of God and who he really is). 31 Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world inrighteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assuranceunto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead. ( The assurance is thatall men, or children of God will be resurrected and have an eternal life, and that Jesus resurrection is the proof of the assurance, being the first fruits ofthe resurrection).32 ?And when they heard of the resurrection of the dead, some mocked: and otherssaid, We will hear thee again of this matter.
( Why did these Jews called Sadducees mock Paul? Because they had stoppedbelieving in resurrection which had become their tradition just as Fred is so desperate to hold on to). Most Jews don't believe in Resurrection (or thereuniting of body and spirit) today either.
In order to know God we must establish who God is, and his relationship to Jesus Christ, and Jesus Christ to us. Then we will know the eternal truth that God, our Heavenly Father, is an exaulted being, who has a physical body of flesh and bones just as Jesus has, who wants the same for all of his children. Let's examine what Paul taught the Romans in Romans Ch. 8:14-18.
14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God. ( Weare led by the spirit of God otherwise known as the Holy Ghost. This is notreferring to Fathers personal spirit).15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage (Meaning the Egyptiancaptivity of the Israelites in Moses day) again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.(The sprit of adoption refers to the word translated or being handed over toJesus Christ care and Kingdom as established by Father. See Colossians Ch.1:12-19 above. It explains it clearly.)16 The Spirit itself (the holy ghost) beareth witness with our spirit, that weare the children of God:17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if sobe that we suffer with him, that we may be GLORIFIED together. ( Glorifiedtogether does not suggest we are different of separate in nature from Father atthis point).18 For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the GLORY which shall be revealed in us. (What Glory is Paulreferring to? Our exaltation, and Glory is like Fathers exaltation and Glory. We will establish this next. Why? Because the scriptures are clear we will be glorified, raised up, or exalted to become the same as Jesus is, and therefore the same as Father is also. God our Father would not glorify Jesus and his other offspring children to be greater eternal beings than He is. So then do the scriptures say who is the one who gives us this Glorification or exalted state? Yes!
See the following scripture found in 1 Peter Ch 5:66 Humble yourselves therefore under the mighty hand of God, that He (meaningHeavenly Father) may EXALT you in due time:
This scripture is then consistent with Acts and Romans.See the following scriptures that leave no doubt resurrection is a gift unto all Gods children.
52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies ( not spirits) of the saintswhich slept arose,53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holycity, and appeared unto many. (the definition of resurrection means the physicalbody reunites with the spirit).54 Now when the centurion, and they that were with him, watching Jesus, saw theearthquake, and those things that were done, they feared greatly, saying,
Truly this was the Son of God. Next, Jesus taught all men are resurrected whether they be good or evil as seenin Acts:
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection oflife; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.Again in Acts:15 And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust.
Where did Jesus go after his resurrection?
See 1 Peter Ch 3:21,22.21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the puttingaway of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,)by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:22 Who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God; angels andauthorities and powers being made subject unto him.
So if Jesus is now sitting on the right hand of God, again why would God have resurrected and exalted Jesus and us above himself? Doesn't add up!Our resurrection is exactly the same as Jesus. See the scripture below:
20 For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour,the Lord Jesus Christ:21 Who shall change our vile body, (flesh and blood)that it may be fashionedlike unto his glorious body, (flesh and bone) according to the working wherebyhe is able even to subdue all things unto himself. (New Testament, Philippians,Chapter 3)What is Jesus body like? See Luke 24:37-3937 But they were terrified and affrighted, and supposed that they had seen aspirit.38 And he said unto them, Why are ye troubled? and why do thoughts arise in yourhearts?39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not FLESH AND BONES, as ye see me have.
Why not flesh and blood? Because is the corruptible change that was broughtupon us by the fall of Adam. This is why resurrection is free gift to all men.
They need not do anything to earn it. However salvation is not the same asredemption. In order to live with God or be saved, we must repent and followafter the Saviors example being obedient to the commandments and striving for Godly perfection. God can not make us decide to want to become like Him. Wehave our agency! That we must chose for ourselves. Paul and Alma spoke of how our bodies are changed from a corruptible form of flesh and blood, to theeternal form of flesh and bone as Jesus described.
See Cor. ch. 15:20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the first fruits of themthat slept.21 For since by man (Adam) came death, by man (Jesus) came also the resurrectionof the dead.22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.23 But every man in his own order: (as we chose) Christ the firstfruits;afterward they that are Christ?s at his coming (meaning the first resurrectionat Christ's second coming).24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, eventhe Father; (Jesus turns it all back over to the Father) when he shall have putdown (established) all rule and all authority and power.25 For he (meaning Jesus) must reign, till he hath put all enemies under hisfeet. (that was the plan of Father from the beginning).26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
Now this plan was obviously Fathers plan as given to Jesus to execute. Again, why would our Father have put forth a plan of eternal life wherein resurrection of Jesus and all his children would have an eternal Body of flesh and bone and He Himself has not one? Doesn't make a bit of sense!
Paul continued with a crystal clear explanation of how this happens.See verses 49-58.
49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom ofGod; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all bechanged,52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpetshall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall bechanged.53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortalshall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that iswritten, Death is swallowed up in victory.55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength
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