So I was reading through the Book of Mormon and came across a couple of verses that confused me.According to the teaching of Joseph Smith, God did not create us out of nothing. He says that both the matter which He used to form our bodies and our souls/intelligence are both formed of eternal material.
Setting the Stage
“Hence, we infer that God had materials to organize the world out of chaos—chaotic matter,which is element, and in which dwells all the glory. Element had an existence from the time he had. The pure principles of element are principles which can never be destroyed; they may be organized and re-organized, but not destroyed. They had no beginning, and can have no end.” pg 350-352 The King Follett Discourse
“The elements are eternal, and spirit and element inseparably connected receive a fullness of joy. * * * The elements are the tabernacle of God; yea, man is the tabernacle of God, even temples.” (D. and C. Sec. 93:33-35.)
The fundamental teaching here is that the elements or matter is as eternal as God. God did not create matter (did not call forth out of nothing - ex nihilo).This means that everything that exists was simply organized into this present form.Additionally, Joseph Smith teaches that our spirits are just as eternal as God.We have existed as long as God has.
“We say that God himself is a self-existent being. Who told you so? It is correct enough;but how did it get into your heads? Who told you that man did not exist in like manner upon the same principles? Man does exist upon the same principles. “THEKING FOLLETT DISCOURSE
“But if I am right, I might with boldness proclaim from the house-tops that God never had the power to create the spirit of man at all.” THE KING FOLLETT DISCOURSE
This is the basic teaching and here we start to get into some murky waters. I would like to pull a couple of touchstone quotes and use it as the foundation for the following discussion.
Pearl of Great Price: 1: 34 He said there was a book deposited,written upon gold plates, giving an account of the former inhabitants of this continent, and the source from whence they sprang. He also said that the fulnessof the everlasting Gospel was contained in it, as delivered by the Savior to the ancient inhabitants;
Pearl of Great Price: 1: 34 He said there was a book deposited,written upon gold plates, giving an account of the former inhabitants of this continent, and the source from whence they sprang. He also said that the fulnessof the everlasting Gospel was contained in it, as delivered by the Savior to the ancient inhabitants;
8 And agave him power from on high, by the means which were before prepared, to translate the Book of Mormon;
9 Which contains a record of a fallen people, and the fulness of the gospel of Jesus Christ to the Gentiles and to the Jews also;
10 Which was given by inspiration, and is confirmed to others by the ministering of angels, and is declared unto the world by them—
11 Proving to the world that the holy scriptures are true,and that God does inspire men and call them to his holy work in this age and generation, as well as in generations of old;
So let's begin with this assumption: the Book of Mormon is true. *I know this is a biiiiiiiiiiiiit of a stretch for you but work with me here* The Book of Mormon contains the fullness of the Gospel and is the truth and is established by God. It is not mistranslated and the words there have been chosen appropriately to accurately convey the truth. It is in plain and simple language. Anything that agrees with the Book of Mormon agrees with God and anything that disagrees is standing against God. Can we agree with this hypothetically just for a little bit? okay?........... I am hearing no "nays" so let's continue.
Truth is not simply established by a single occurrence or recording. It requires multiple witnesses(2 Corinthians 13:1, Matthew 18:16, Deuteronomy 17:6). And additionally:
Gal 1:6 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:
Gal 1:7 Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.
Gal 1:8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
Gal 1:9 As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.
So we have established for this article the following points:
1. The Book of Mormon is the true expression of the Gospel.
2. Its translation is absolutely accurate. There are no errors and the meaning is communicated in plain and simple language. There is no clouded meaning or confusion.
3. Every truth is established by two or three witnesses or, in the case of scripture, two or three verses for a doctrine.
4. Anyone who preaches a Gospel different from what has already been received is to be accursed. This shall be true even if an apostle, prophet, or angel preaches it. The Gospel stands set in stone and is forever unmovable by the words of any man or angel.If anything contradicts the Book of Mormon, it is wrong.
With this idea established, let's move forward with this passage from 2 Nephi 2:14-15.
Creation and its Meaning
14 And now, my sons, I speak unto you these things for your profit and learning;for there is a God, and he hath created all things, both the heavens and the earth, and all things that in them are, both things to act and things to be acted upon.
15 And to bring about his eternal purposes in the end of man, after he had created our first parents, and the beasts of the field and the fowls of the air, and in fine, all things which are created, it must needs be that there was an opposition; even the forbidden fruit in opposition to the tree of life;the one being sweet and the other bitter.
Here is a retelling of the Genesis account. God created Adam and Eve. For the sake of fulfilling the multiple witnesses, I looked up some more verses: Mosiah 3:8, Helaman 14:12. All three passage use identical language in proclaiming God (and Jesus)as responsible for the creation.
Now what does the word"create" mean? Remember that this book was written in plain and simple language. The words are each chosen without error. Therefore, each and every word was selected deliberately for both its simplicity and accurate meaning. For the sake of convenience I will post the definition from the 1826 Webster's dictionary.
CREATE: To produce; to bring into being from nothing; to cause to exist. In the beginning, God created the heaven and the earth. Genesis 1.
There is no other definition for the word. None at all. This word's very plain and simple meaning during the time of the translation (Remember: "And gave him power from on high, ... to translate the Book of Mormon") was "to bring forth out of nothing". This is the plain and simple meaning of the word"create" which the "power from on high" chose to use in the translation. The very meaning of the word “create” means to bring forth out of nothing. And so that I establish this by two or more witnesses I will quote from the Prophet Joesph Smith.
"You ask the learned doctors why they say the world was made out of nothing; and they will answer, "Doesn't the Bible say He created the world?"And they infer, from the word create, that it must have been made out of nothing."
The King Follett Discourse
The Prophet Joseph Smith himself says that the English word "create" carries the meaning“to make out of nothing”. I now have two witnesses to the definition of create:
1. The 1826 definition which leaves no room for confusion and thus perfectly fits the descriptor for"plain and simple language".
2. Joseph Smith himself says that the English word "create" does itself infer"make out of nothing".
Conclusion
The main thing you have been trying to get me to accept is the book of Mormon. Here is the problem: I keep arriving at the same place over and over. If I accept the Book of Mormon as scripture, I am always forced to declare the LDS doctrine as apostasy because of the Book of Mormon. The Book of Mormon declares Mormons heretics.There is no way around this.
The problem is that you can try to convince me that Joseph Smith was a prophet. However, even if I accept that, I must accept that the Gospel is contained accurately in the Book of Mormon and that any attempt to preach a different Gospel, even by apostles,prophets, or angels, must be absolutely resisted. The man or angel who preaches a different gospel is to be accursed. The Book of Mormon says that God created(which means "out of nothing" according to both the dictionary during that time and Joseph Smith himself) the heavens and the earth and all that is in them. Joseph Smith then later preached a gospel which does not match the picture in the Book of Mormon. The proper response when a person contradicts the gospel (according to the scriptures themselves) is not to subjugate the scriptures to the opinion of that man, but to judge the man's words in light of the words of the scriptures.
This did not happen.Instead of letting the plain and simple language of the Book of Mormon remain simple and plain, the leadership now must cover for Joseph Smith completely contradicting the plain language of the Book of Mormon. Now instead of the plain language, the words have been redefined and convoluted so as to cover for the contradiction. The word create (which was simple and plainly defined) is now defined as: "To organize. God, working through his Son, Jesus Christ,organized the elements in nature to form the earth."
Remember, according to the LDS, the church fell into apostasy very quickly after Jesus left. For example: Peter was the leader of the early church. He walked and talked with Jesus in the flesh (which you claim Joseph Smith also did). He then later went on to lead the Christian Church. However, even with spending that much time with Jesus and even having the priesthood and the Holy Spirit, he still fell into apostasy (Galatians 2:11-21). Granted, it was for a short time and Paul corrected him and brought him out. If Peter, who is similar to your story of Joesph Smith in many ways, fell into apostasy, then would it really be far fetched to think that Joseph Smith could have fallen in like manner? If he had no figure similar to Paul to call him out then the apostasy would have continued and the church would have followed him into it.
Think about it. Paul gives this advice in the first chapter:
Gal 1:9 As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto youthan that ye have received, let him be accursed
Then less than a chapter later (same context, same letter) gives a story of Peter falling into apostasy. The message is pretty simple. Judge the men by the scripture. Even if a man of God (which Joseph Smith was), who spent time being taught in the physical presence of Jesus (which Joseph Smith was), lead the church for years(which Joseph Smith did), and delivered unto the church new revelation and scripture (which Joseph Smith did), even if a man like that falls into apostasy and preaches a different gospel (which I think he did), then let that man be accursed. Even if Peter himself or a man on his level (which Joseph Smith was)preaches a different gospel, ignore him, don't put the word of God under his interpretation. Let him be accursed.
Even if I accepted the Book of Mormon and Joseph Smith being a prophet, I see the gospel being restored on the earth. The church followed Joseph Smith for a number of years and failed to heed Paul's warning and followed Joseph Smith right back into apostasy.
Let me repeat this one final time:
Gal 1:9 As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed
If someone preaches a different gospel, we do not interpret the scripture according to his words, the authority of scripture is always held above the man. Always.
The Core of My Issue
This is truly the core of my issues with the LDS. The scriptures and the Holy Spirit both witness tome that the Word of God is the supreme authority and above any man. All men who claim to be prophets are to be held under the authority of scripture and judged by it (1 Thes 5:19-22, 1 Corinthians 14:29, Acts 17:11, 1 John 4:1).In the LDS the order is reversed. Joseph Smith is not judged by the scripture,the meaning and interpretation of scripture is judged and dictated by him. Even though I am saved and have received the Holy Spirit and speak in tongues,according to the LDS I am not permitted to read the scriptures to know thetruth for myself. I am not permitted to think for myself. I am not allowed to discern the meanings of the scriptures.
Joseph Smith does not submit to testing of the Scripture. The Scripture submits to Joseph Smith. Howcan I accept that?
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