This is going to be the main crux of the predestination argument. God is all powerful. This is not truly argued within the Christian understanding. God has the power to control everything in creation. This includes controlling human minds and whether or not people do certain things. When God declares His intentions He has the power to ensure they occur regardless of resistance.
Return to Christian Main
The Calvinist theology claims this is what is happening in our current reality. Everything from the path of stars down to human civilization to the path of a particle of dust is purposefully orchestrated by God. Irrestible grave refers to the claim that God has chosen to save these people and will be brought to salvation irrespective of their wishes. If God has to drag them kicking and screaming to salvation, He will. Basically, God forces His chosen to “will” to accept salvation. God’s plans will be carried out and no action on the part of the chosen will help or hinder the plans. God cannot be influenced and His will never fails to become reality.
This claim is wrong on nearly every count. I will endevor to show that Jehovah is a God that can be influenced and does not exert the full potential of His power.
Luke 8:12 "Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved."
This is a short snippet from the parable of the sower. God’s word is sent forward in the form of a seed to everyone. God’s will is for everyone to be saved. Because the will of God is to save everyone this message is given to every field. In some cases, the people/soil receives the message and grows, but others do not. In some cases Satan was able to remove the potential effect of the gospel by pulling it out of the person’s memory. God has the power to overcome Satan and force the gospel through human will and demonic intervention. God is choosing to not exercise this power. So He is allowing His will to fail because of demonic intervention. In other cases, the salvation fails because the people are more concerned by other things. Because of human disinterest, God’s will to draw all peoples to Himself fails to succeed.
John 12:32 "And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all [peoples] to Myself."
Jesus does draw all people to Himself. Jesus said He will draw all people unto Himself if He were to be lifted up and crucified. God desires all mankind to be saved, but most people resist being drawn. John Calvin's doctrine of "Irresistible Grace" is clearly shown to be incorrect by Jesus' clear declaration.
2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning [His] promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.
I have pasted a set of verses below detailing examples of when God’s will is allowed to fail because human freewill would be violated otherwise.
Proverbs 1:22 "How long, you simple ones, will you love simplicity? For scorners delight in their scorning, and fools hate knowledge. 23 Turn at my rebuke; Surely, I will pour out my spirit on you; I will make my words known to you. 24 Because I have called and you refused, I have stretched out my hand and no one regarded, 25 Because you disdained all my counsel, And would have none of my rebuke, 26 I also will laugh at your calamity; I will mock when your terror comes, 27 When your terror comes like a storm, And your destruction comes like a whirlwind, When distress and anguish come upon you."
Matthew 23:37 "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under [her] wings, but you were not willing! 38 "See! Your house is left to you desolate; 39 "for I say to you, you shall see Me no more till you say, `Blessed [is] He who comes in the name of the Lord!' "
God’s will is frustrated and defeated by the resistance of His followers.
Acts 7:51 "[You] stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears! You always resist the Holy Spirit; as your fathers [did], so [do] you. 52 "Which of the prophets did your fathers not persecute? And they killed those who foretold the coming of the Just One, of whom you now have become the betrayers and murderers, 53 "who have received the law by the direction of angels and have not kept [it]."
Isaiah 45:22 "Look to Me and be saved, All you ends of the earth! For I [am] God, and [there] [is] no other."
Acts 17:30 "Truly, these times of ignorance God overlooked, but now, commands all men everywhere to repent."
1 Timothy 2:3 For this [is] good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, 4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.
John 6:39b "And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day."
“O that there were such an heart in them, that they would fear me, and keep all my commandments always, that it might be well with them, and with their children forever!” Deuteronomy 5:29
“And the LORD commanded us to do all these statutes, to fear the LORD our God, for our good always, that he might preserve us alive, as it is at this day.” Deuteronomy 6:24
1 Samuel 8:7 And the Lord said to Samuel, "Heed the voice of the people in all that they say to you; for they have not rejected you, but they have rejected Me, that I should not reign over them."
1 Samuel 10:19 "But you have today rejected your God, who Himself saved you from all your adversities and your tribulations; and you have said to Him, `No, set a king over us!' "
1 Samuel 13:9 So Saul said, "Bring a burnt offering and peace offerings here to me." And he offered the burnt offering. 10 Now it happened, as soon as he had finished presenting the burnt offering, that Samuel came; and Saul went out to meet him, that he might greet him. 11 And Samuel said, "What have you done?" And Saul said, "When I saw that the people were scattered from me, and [that] you did not come within the days appointed, and [that] the Philistines gathered together at Michmash, 12 "then I said, `The Philistines will now come down on me at Gilgal, and I have not made supplication to the Lord.' Therefore I felt compelled, and offered a burnt offering." 13 And Samuel said to Saul, "You have done foolishly. You have not kept the commandment of the Lord your God, which He commanded you. For now the Lord would have established your kingdom over Israel forever."
Isa 38:1 In those days Hezekiah became sick and was at the point of death. And Isaiah the prophet the son of Amoz came to him, and said to him, "Thus says the LORD: Set your house in order, for you shall die, you shall not recover."
Isa 38:2 Then Hezekiah turned his face to the wall and prayed to the LORD,
Isa 38:3 and said, "Please, O LORD, remember how I have walked before you in faithfulness and with a whole heart, and have done what is good in your sight." And Hezekiah wept bitterly.
Isa 38:4 Then the word of the LORD came to Isaiah:
Isa 38:5 "Go and say to Hezekiah, Thus says the LORD, the God of David your father: I have heard your prayer; I have seen your tears. Behold, I will add fifteen years to your life.
Isa 38:6 I will deliver you and this city out of the hand of the king of Assyria, and will defend this city.
God said what was going to happen but the king prayed. God responded and added 15 years to the King’s life. God allowed a man’s prayers to override God’s intentions.
Exo 32:9 And the LORD said to Moses, "I have seen this people, and behold, it is a stiff-necked people.
Exo 32:10 Now therefore let me alone, that my wrath may burn hot against them and I may consume them, in order that I may make a great nation of you."
Exo 32:11 But Moses implored the LORD his God and said, "O LORD, why does your wrath burn hot against your people, whom you have brought out of the land of Egypt with great power and with a mighty hand?
Exo 32:12 Why should the Egyptians say, 'With evil intent did he bring them out, to kill them in the mountains and to consume them from the face of the earth'? Turn from your burning anger and relent from this disaster against your people.
Exo 32:13 Remember Abraham, Isaac, and Israel, your servants, to whom you swore by your own self, and said to them, 'I will multiply your offspring as the stars of heaven, and all this land that I have promised I will give to your offspring, and they shall inherit it forever.'"
Exo 32:14 And the LORD relented from the disaster that he had spoken of bringing on his people.
This is another example of a time God set down is plan. God does not come off looking great in this situation but it is still relevant. Moses pleaded with God. God was influenced by Moses and God’s plans were change by the actions of a man.
Perseverance of the saints
“The scriptures strongly encourage the believer to keep the faith, meaning that a person could turn away from the faith. We are to "keep yourselves in the love of God." (Jude 21). We are to "hold fast the form of sound words." (2 Timothy 1:13). Jesus said, "Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away." (John 15:2). Jesus also said, "If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch," (John 15:6). These verses pertain to a person who was saved because Jesus said he was a branch in Him. These verses and others indicate that a believer can fall away from faith by his own free will. People who were once saved can and do deny God and Jesus Christ the Lord.-
http://www.biblelife.org/calvinism_perseverance.htm
2 Timothy 4:4 and they will turn [their] ears away from the truth, and be turned aside to fables.
Galatians 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse; for it is written, "Cursed [is] everyone who does not continue in all things which are written in the book of the law, to do them." 11 But that no one is justified by the law in the sight of God [is] evident, for "the just shall live by faith." 12 Yet the law is not of faith, but "the man who does them shall live by them." 13 Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us (for it is written, "Cursed [is] everyone who hangs on a tree"), 14 that the blessing of Abraham might come upon the Gentiles in Christ Jesus, that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.
Galatians 3:24 Therefore the law was our tutor [to] [bring] [us] to Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
Colossians 2:20 Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances, {rudiments: or, elements} 21 (Touch not; taste not; handle not; 22 Which all are to perish with the using;) after the commandments and doctrines of men? (KJV)
Hebrews 4:1-11 Therefore, since a promise remains of entering His rest, let us fear lest any of you seem to have come short of it. 2 For indeed the gospel was preached to us as well as to them; but the word which they heard did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in those who heard [it]. 3 For we who have believed do enter that rest, as He has said: "So I swore in My wrath, `They shall not enter My rest,' " although the works were finished from the foundation of the world. 4 For He has spoken in a certain place of the seventh [day] in this way: "And God rested on the seventh day from all His works"; 5 and again in this [place]: "They shall not enter My rest." 6 Since therefore it remains that some [must] enter it, and those to whom it was first preached did not enter because of disobedience, 7 again He designates a certain day, saying in David, "Today," after such a long time, as it has been said: "Today, if you will hear
THE ABOVE SENTENCE IS A FRAGMENT
Heb 6:4 For it is impossible, in the case of those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have shared in the Holy Spirit,
Heb 6:5 and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come,
Heb 6:6 and then have fallen away, to restore them again to repentance, since they are crucifying once again the Son of God to their own harm and holding him up to contempt.
His voice, Do not harden your hearts." 8 For if Joshua had given them rest then He would not afterward have spoken of another day. 9 There remains therefore a rest for the people of God. 10 For he who has entered His rest has himself also ceased from his works as God [did] from His. 11 Let us therefore be diligent to enter that rest, lest anyone fall according to the same example of disobedience.
Galatians 5:4 You have become estranged from Christ, you who [attempt] [to] be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.
Hebrews 10:26 For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries.
2 Peter 2:20-21 For if, after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the latter end is worse for them than the beginning. 21 For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known [it], to turn from the holy commandment delivered to them.
Verses used to support predestination
Rom 8:29 For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.
Rom 8:30 And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.
To fully understand what this passage is truly communicating we must understand the context; so I refer to Romans 8. This entire passage of scripture is addressing the difference between the law and grace. It explains not only the inability of the law to satisfy God’s requirements, but the sinful nature of those that choose to follow the law over grace. Those that seek to follow the law are focused on themselves. They seek not to accept the free gift from God but to enter heaven by their own strength. The focus is about their own holiness and works with their concern on their own nature and state. Their attention is not on God but on themselves and attempting to become their own source of life. Those that accept salvation by grace are seeking the nature of God and begin with the foundational understanding that their “holiness” is trash. So they take their eyes off of themselves, their own power and their own works; instead focus on the nature of God and spiritual things.
Rom 8:3 For God has done what the law, weakened by the flesh, could not do. By sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin, he condemned sin in the flesh,
Rom 8:4 in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.
Rom 8:5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit set their minds on the things of the Spirit.
Romans 8 is an explanation of why accepting the salvation of Christ is better. It then proceeds to ramble about the many wonderful benefits of accepting Jesus. Then it hits another pillar of predestination.
Rom 8:28 And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose.
Rom 8:29 For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.
Rom 8:30 And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.
This passage is often used to claim that God is choosing the people before hand who will accept salvation. The verse before the often quoted passage starts with limiting the statement to those that love God. The most appropriate interpretation of this passage is that this is describing the process or plan rather the individuals involved. Remember, before this the latter was addressing the law as a spiritual institution and its failure to satisfy Gods standards. It then addressed the plan of salvation and how this plan worked and how it does satisfy God and is better on all counts than the law. The passage before this:
Rom 8:23 And not only
they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption,
to wit, the redemption of our body.
Rom 8:24 For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?
Rom 8:25 But if we hope for that we see not,
then do we with patience wait for
it.
Rom 8:26 Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.
Rom 8:27 And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what
is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to
the will of God.
This is part of an overall passage describing how creation and the followers of Christ are patiently waiting the redemption and resurection. This is still in group terms. The fact that the Spirit helps us and makes intersession is not limited to the individuals. The Spirit does this for the entire church. Remember, the idea is: Plan of Salvation is better than the Plan of the Law, Benefits of the Plan of Salvation (which includes Romans 8:23-27) and then the argument loops back on itself to restate the process or plan of salvation.
Rom 8:29 For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.
Rom 8:30 And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.
Remember, this overall argument to reject living by the law was primarily addressed to “those (the group) that loves God.” There are two interpretations to answer the question of who are included in the predestined in this passage. One is that God saw who would choose Him and chose them in response. So He predestined them based on His knowledge of who would choose Him. I disagree with this interpretation. Here is why.
Predestination: (G4309) προορίζω proorizō: From
G4253 and
G3724; to
limit in advance
This term means to limit in advance. Basically, God is setting the terms or conditions in advance. He is drawing a line in the sand. God then ordains that all whom He foreknows would remain within those lines. The key to proper interpretation of this passage rests in knowing who is included in the foreknowledge. I will back into this by addressing the question, who is predestined to be conformed to the image of Christ?
2Co 5:17 Therefore if any man
be in Christ,
he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.
2Co 5:18 And all things
are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;
According to this, anyone who is in Christ (saved) is a new creature. What is the point of being a new creature?
Eph 4:22 That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts;
Eph 4:23 And be renewed in the spirit of your mind;
Eph 4:24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.
The new creature puts on the new nature which is created in the image of Christ. All those that are saved are meant to be conformed to the image of Christ. Who does God command to be saved? Everyone.
John 12:32 "And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all [peoples] to Myself."
2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning [His] promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.
Isaiah 45:22 "Look to Me, and be saved, All you ends of the earth! For I [am] God, and [there] [is] no other."
Acts 17:30 "Truly, these times of ignorance God overlooked, but now, commands all men everywhere to repent."
1 Timothy 2:3 For this [is] good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, 4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.
Therefore, all of mankind is meant to be conformed, so if everyone is meant to be conformed to Christ then that emplies they were all foreknown. This makes more sense. God saw and knew everyone who would be born from the beginning of time and from eternity ordained that all men would be conformed to the image of His son. This is God’s will. However, because God will not violate the free will of mankind to choose God or not, this leaves open the possibility that God’s established limit or ordenance could be and has been violated by everyone who reject God. So the logical progression goes like this: Those whom He foreknew (all mankind), He ordained them(all mankind) to be conformed to the image of His Son. This follows the purpose God set for mankind in the Garden of Eden. God is working to reestablish man’s original position. Those whom God ordained to be His image bearers, he called to the purpose; those that He called, He Justified. Those He justified, those He glorified.
The reason I feel I can make this passage refer to all mankind rather than the “those who love God” is because of the logic structure of the letter. Paul
Rom 8:28 And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose.
Stand alone statement. Fact: This group has the following features: called according to His purpose and all things work to their good
Rom 8:29 For (“For” means because of – this is a supporting argument that is not included within the previous statement but supports it) those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.
Rom 8:30 And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.
The passage is communicating that because the general process works like this, we are able to use this fact to support the previous conclusion. The previous conclusion was partly the fact that everything works for their good. The reason it applies specifically to those who love God is because they are called and answered His purpose. These people are in good condition because they remained within the plan. This is in contrast to those that reject God. Because God’s will and plans can be violated, this means that everyone is foreknown and ordained to be saved and conformed. However, some choose to reject God and opt out of the salvation plan. They were from eternity “limited” to this purpose but they left the limit and therefore left the limits of the process of salvation. I hope this makes sense.
Rom 1:20 For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse.
Rom 1:21 For although they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking, and their foolish hearts were darkened.
Rom 1:22 Claiming to be wise, they became fools,
Rom 1:23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images resembling mortal man and birds and animals and creeping things.
Rom 1:24 Therefore God gave them up in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, to the dishonoring of their bodies among themselves,
Rom 1:25 because they exchanged the truth about God for a lie and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever! Amen.
Here is another example. People reject God and He gives them over to the sin they are committing. This follows the same pattern. People with their own free will making their own decisions and God allowing them to do so. He then gives them over to the sin they are seeking after.
The majority of Romans 9 is another part of this section used as one of the major pillars of predestination. Again we must take everything in complete context.
Rom 9:9 For this
is the word of promise, At this time will I come, and Sara shall have a son.
Rom 9:10 And not only
this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one,
even by our father Isaac;
Rom 9:11 (For
the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)
Rom 9:12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.
Rom 9:13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
Rom 9:14 What shall we say then?
Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
Rom 9:15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
Rom 9:16 So then
it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
At first glance this section seems to indicate that God picked His preference of the two sons simply out of an arbitrarily will. This is not the case. Everything must be taken in complete context. In this section, the two are serving as symbols. God is speaking through Paul about what the two represent and God’s preference. This is not about how God arbitrarily decided to love one person and hate another. This is about two ways of thinking and acting represented by the two.
Before this section Paul is discussing his hope that the rest of the nation of Israel would be saved. Before that he was discussing how the law is not a valid way of getting into heaven. The only true way to please God was by accepting mercy and salvation and looking to God for holiness.
Gen 25:21 And Isaac intreated the LORD for his wife, because she
was barren: and the LORD was intreated of him, and Rebekah his wife conceived.
Gen 25:22 And the children struggled together within her; and she said, If
it be so, why
am I thus? And she went to enquire of the LORD.
Gen 25:23 And the LORD said unto her, Two nations
are in thy womb, and two manner of people shall be separated from thy bowels; and
the one people shall be stronger than
the other people; and the elder shall serve the younger.
We have to remember that using the name of a person in the bible can mean both the individual person as well as the family line he founds or represents. We constantly refer to Israel. However, Israel is two things. The first is the individual person, Jacob; the other is the nation he founded.
In this case, there is further symbolism going on. Jacob represents a different kind of mentality from Esau. Esau was a man of the fields and the earth. Esau was focused on the world and gaining dominion over it rather than on spiritual things.
Gen 25:27 And the boys grew: and Esau was a cunning hunter, a man of the field; and Jacob
was a plain man, dwelling in tents.
Plain: H8535 (תּם) tâm: From
H8552;
complete; usually (morally)
pious; specifically
gentle,
dear: - coupled together, perfect, plain, undefiled, upright
Jacob was focused on spiritual things. He was pious. Also, when it states that he was a dweller of tents that could very well be indicative of spending time with God. In that time the scriptures and other spiritual effects were kept in a dedicated tent. This would have been somewhat similar to the original tent-based tabernacle established with Moses. So this could be saying that Jacob spent most of his time reading and learning the scriptures and communing with God. This could be speculation on my part but it would match with the character of what is going on.
Gen 25:29 Once when Jacob was cooking stew, Esau came in from the field, and he was exhausted.
Gen 25:30 And Esau said to Jacob, "Let me eat some of that red stew, for I am exhausted!" (Therefore his name was called Edom.)
Gen 25:31 Jacob said, "Sell me your birthright now."
Gen 25:32 Esau said, "I am about to die; of what use is a birthright to me?"
Gen 25:33 Jacob said, "Swear to me now." So he swore to him and sold his birthright to Jacob.
Gen 25:34 Then Jacob gave Esau bread and lentil stew, and he ate and drank and rose and went his way. Thus Esau despised his birthright.
This story shows the character of the two men. Esau came in from the field hungry and wanted some of the food Jacob was cooking. Remember, this is part of the encampment of Issac. This guy was stupid rich by this point and had dozens if not hundreds of people attached to his camp. Esau could have gotten food very easily. There is no way that pot of soup was the only food to be had in the whole camp. The issue is Esau wanted THAT pot of soup NOW. He stated that he was exhausted which is indicative that he was just not in the mood to cook himself or did not care to wait for a servant to fix something.
Additionally, the scripture even points out that by this action Esau dispised the birthright.
Despise: H959 (בּזה) bâzâh: A primitive root; to
disesteem: - despise, disdain, contemn (-ptible), + think to scorn, vile person.
Why is this so important? What was the birthright? The birthright was the promised seed of Abraham. More than this, it was about spiritual birthright. The spiritual birthright was possession and access to the scriptures and spiritual focus. Esau did not care for or esteem spiritual things. Jacob did. Jacob traded worldly possessions (the soup) for spiritual possessions (the birthright to the scriptures and position of communicating with God). Esau traded spiritual possessions (the birthright) for worldly and temporal gain (soup). This is about more than the fates of these two men. The later scriptures are using these two men as archatypes for the spiritually minded and carnally minded.
This theme even continues to later passages.
Gen 26:34 When Esau was forty years old, he took Judith the daughter of Beeri the Hittite to be his wife, and Basemath the daughter of Elon the Hittite,
Gen 26:35 and they made life bitter for Isaac and Rebekah.
Easu took Hittite women for wives. This was probably against the wishes of the family. Abraham went to great lengths to provide a wife for Issac that was not from the idolotruous peoples. This was meant to be an example for the family to follow. Esau was no doubt aware of this but rejected their wishes. He took women who would be disagreeable partly because of their contrary religion and partly because of their being jerks. This represents further rejection of the things of the spirit on Esau’s part.
Gen 32:24 And Jacob was left alone. And a man wrestled with him until the breaking of the day.
Gen 32:25 When the man saw that he did not prevail against Jacob, he touched his hip socket, and Jacob's hip was put out of joint as he wrestled with him.
Gen 32:26 Then he said, "Let me go, for the day has broken." But Jacob said, "I will not let you go unless you bless me."
Gen 32:27 And he said to him, "What is your name?" And he said, "Jacob."
Gen 32:28 Then he said, "Your name shall no longer be called Jacob, but Israel, for you have striven with God and with men, and have prevailed."
Gen 32:29 Then Jacob asked him, "Please tell me your name." But he said, "Why is it that you ask my name?" And there he blessed him.
Gen 32:30 So Jacob called the name of the place Peniel, saying, "For I have seen God face to face, and yet my life has been delivered."
This is referred to as a preincarnation appearance of Jesus. In this passage Jacob wrestles with God. This carries a symbolic meaning. Jacob wrestled and would not let go of God. Moreover he asked a blessing of God before Jacob would release Him. This is also part of the arachatype. God loves people who seek after Him and do not stop wrestling with the God/Jesus/Truth until they receive a blessing.
Furthermore, the verse in which God says he loves Jacob and Esau is a quote.
Mal 1:2 "I have loved you," says the LORD. But you say, "How have you loved us?" "Is not Esau Jacob's brother?" declares the LORD. "Yet I have loved Jacob
Mal 1:3 but Esau I have hated. I have laid waste his hill country and left his heritage to jackals of the desert."
Mal 1:4 If Edom says, "We are shattered but we will rebuild the ruins," the LORD of hosts says, "They may build, but I will tear down, and they will be called 'the wicked country,' and 'the people with whom the LORD is angry forever.'"
Mal 1:5 Your own eyes shall see this, and you shall say, "Great is the LORD beyond the border of Israel!"
Mal 1:6 "A son honors his father, and a servant his master. If then I am a father, where is my honor? And if I am a master, where is my fear? says the LORD of hosts to you, O priests, who despise my name. But you say, 'How have we despised your name?'
Mal 1:7 By offering polluted food upon my altar. But you say, 'How have we polluted you?' By saying that the LORD's table may be despised.
Mal 1:8 When you offer blind animals in sacrifice, is that not evil? And when you offer those that are lame or sick, is that not evil? Present that to your governor; will he accept you or show you favor? says the LORD of hosts.
The reason God punished the decedents of Esau was because of their sins against God. This reference is hundreds of years after the two are dead. This section is talking about the desendance of the two men. Jacob, the nation has received special favor. Esau as be punished for their sins. This is still not referring to individuals but to nations.
So I would submit that in the Romans text the section dealing with Jacob and Esau are referring to their symbolic archetypes, and not to their individual salvation.
Now onto the next bit of the “predestination” scripture: Pharaoh.
Romans 9:17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, "For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I may show My power in you, and that My name may be declared in all the earth." 18 Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens.
Pharaoh was predictive not predestined. This situation follows the principle of giving people over to their sin – they choose and God let them have it their way. To show this we need to go back to the context of the situation. The people of Israel are enslaved to the Pharaoh of Egypt. Moses is being called to return to the country and free them. God is predictive, not declarative in this first mention of Pharaoh.
Exo 3:19 And I am sure that the king of Egypt will not let you go, no, not by a mighty hand.
Exo 3:20 And I will stretch out my hand, and smite Egypt with all my wonders which I will do in the midst thereof: and after that he will let you go.
God is predicting how Pharaoh will respond. God is not forcing him to do one thing or the other. God is just predicting how things will go and adjusting his plans in response. God does not affect Pharaoh until after he has decided his own fate.
Exodus 7:14 So the Lord said to Moses: "Pharaoh's heart [is] hard; he refuses to let the people go."
Exodus 8:15 But when Pharaoh saw that there was relief, he hardened his heart and did not heed them, as the Lord had said.
Exodus 8:27 "We will go three days' journey into the wilderness and sacrifice to the Lord our God as He will command us." 28 And Pharaoh said, "I will let you go, that you may sacrifice to the Lord your God in the wilderness; only you shall not go very far away. Intercede for me." 29 Then Moses said, "Indeed I am going out from you, and I will entreat the Lord, that the swarms [of] [flies] may depart tomorrow from Pharaoh, from his servants, and from his people. But let Pharaoh not deal deceitfully anymore in not letting the people go to sacrifice to the Lord." 30 So Moses went out from Pharaoh and entreated the Lord. 31 And the Lord did according to the word of Moses; He removed the swarms [of] [flies] from Pharaoh, from his servants, and from his people. Not one remained. 32 But Pharaoh hardened his heart at this time also; neither would he let the people go. 9:1 Then the Lord said to Moses, "Go in to Pharaoh and tell him, `Thus says the Lord God of the Hebrews: Let My people go, that they may serve Me.'"
In this set of verses God is doing nothing to Pharaoh. The man is choosing of his own freewill to fight God. The man is choosing sin consistently. Then following the aforemention principle, God hands Pharaoh over to the sin he has chosen for himself.
Exo 9:12 But the LORD hardened the heart of Pharaoh, and he did not listen to them, as the LORD had spoken to Moses.
This is the first time that God influences the Pharaoh. God did not predestine him to fight nor did God even influence him until he had made his own freewill decision. On top of that, God is still not truly violating his will.
Harden: H2388 (חזק) châzaq: to
fasten upon; hence to
seize,
be strong (figuratively
courageous, causatively
strengthen,
cure,
help,
repair,
fortify),
obstinate; to
bind,
restrain,
conquer: - aid, amend, X calker, catch, cleave, confirm, be constant, constrain, continue, be of good (take) courage (-ous, -ly), encourage (self), be established, fasten, force, fortify, make hard, harden, help, (lay) hold (fast), lean, maintain, play the man, mend, become (wax) mighty, prevail, be recovered, repair, retain, seize, be (wax) sore, strengten (self), be stout, be (make, shew, wax) strong (-er), be sure, take (hold), be urgent, behave self valiantly, withstand
God is not forcing the man to do anything. He is simply giving him the strength to endure the plagues. He is giving Pharaoh the courage to face down the situation. Less than influencing Pharaoh’s freewill, this is almost guarantee’s it. God is ensuring he is not forced to back down from the displays of power and can make his pride free of the fear resulting from God’s actions. Pharaoh never had to keep going, God simply gave him the means to do so. It was Pharaoh’s own call to go down that path.
“The Apostle Paul uses the story of Pharaoh as an example for Israel. Israel hardened their hearts in their rejection of Jesus Christ; therefore, God has the right to turn to the Gentiles with the gospel of salvation by grace. The Gentiles were not God's people but now they shall be called the "sons of the living God."” -
http://www.biblelife.org/election.htm
19 You will say to me then, "Why does He still find fault? For who has resisted His will?"
The reason God still finds fault is because God is not forcing anyone to do anything. Everyone is making their own calls. Additionally, the reason that God’s will is “not resisted” is because Gods will is being resisted. God intends one thing, man resists and then God adjusts His plan to the resistance and mages to still get what He what He wants. The skill of God to work around people fighting Him does not imply that God wants people to resist Him.
20 But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed say to him who formed [it], "Why have you made me like this?" 21 Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor? 22 [What] if God, wanting to show [His] wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory,
This is probably the most painful passage regarding God’s will and power. Remember that the context of this passage is still about groups. Paul is still discussing the fate of the Jews. One of the main principles of biblical exegesis is to define the bible by the bible. By this I mean that for us to understand a term or a symbol we have to take into account not just the textbook definition, but also how the bible uses the term. This is one of the situations when the textbook definition will be insaficient. The most obvious meaning for the clay is man. This refers back to the beginning when Man was formed of the dust. This is not the complete story. Here is the main passage Paul is alluding to:
Jer 18:3 So I went down to the potter's house, and there he was working at his wheel.
Jer 18:4 And the vessel he was making of clay was spoiled in the potter's hand, and he reworked it into another vessel, as it seemed good to the potter to do.
Jer 18:5 Then the word of the LORD came to me:
Jer 18:6 "O house of Israel, can I not do with you as this potter has done? declares the LORD. Behold, like the clay in the potter's hand, so are you in my hand, O house of Israel.
Jer 18:7 If at any time I declare concerning a nation or a kingdom, that I will pluck up and break down and destroy it,
Jer 18:8 and if that nation, concerning which I have spoken, turns from its evil, I will relent of the disaster that I intended to do to it.
The clay in the potter’s hand is defined as nations. Even in this context God still takes the will of man into account. God claims the privilege to destroy any nation at will but that is not His nature. God cares about the people this affects and adjusts His will to the will of man. Here is a list of verses which use the symbolism of potter:
Psa_2:9, Isa_29:16, Isa_30:14, Isa_41:25, Jer_19:1.
24 [even] us whom He called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles? 25 As He says also in Hosea: "I will call them My people, who were not My people, And her beloved, who was not beloved." 26 "And it shall come to pass in the place where it was said to them, 'You [are] not My people,' There they shall be called sons of the living God."
To reiterate, the context of this verse is that the Israelites and the salvation of the gentiles is the point of this passage. Paul is not talking about individuals here but the two groups of people. While, yes, Paul may be indicating that God is claiming the privilege to arbitrarily affect the fate of nations, this was spoken specifically about the Jews, about which God has always exercised this privilege. Additionally, even though God does claim power over nations in general. He does not exercise this power irrespective to the will of man. The individual salvation and fate of individuals are never implied in these passages and the free will of individual people are not violated.
Rom 9:1 I am speaking the truth in Christ--I am not lying; my conscience bears me witness in the Holy Spirit--
Rom 9:2 that I have great sorrow and unceasing anguish in my heart.
Rom 9:3 For I could wish that I myself were accursed and cut off from Christ for the sake of my brothers, my kinsmen according to the flesh.
Rom 9:4 They are Israelites, and to them belong the adoption, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the worship, and the promises.
Rom 9:5 To them belong the patriarchs, and from their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ who is God over all, blessed forever. Amen.
Rom 9:6 But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel,
Rom 9:7 and not all are children of Abraham because they are his offspring, but "Through Isaac shall your offspring be named."
Rom 9:8 This means that it is not the children of the flesh who are the children of God, but the children of the promise are counted as offspring.
Rom 9:9 For this is what the promise said: "About this time next year I will return, and Sarah shall have a son."
Rom 9:10 And not only so, but also when Rebekah had conceived children by one man, our forefather Isaac,
Rom 9:11 though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad--in order that God's purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of him who calls--
Rom 9:12 she was told, "The older will serve the younger."
Rom 9:13 As it is written, "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated."
Rom 9:14 What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God's part? By no means!
Rom 9:15 For he says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion."
Rom 9:16 So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy.
Rom 9:17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, "For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth."
Rom 9:18 So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills.
Rom 9:19 You will say to me then, "Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?"
Rom 9:20 But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, "Why have you made me like this?"
Rom 9:21 Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use?
Rom 9:22 What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction,
Rom 9:23 in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory--
Rom 9:24 even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles?
Rom 9:25 As indeed he says in Hosea, "Those who were not my people I will call 'my people,' and her who was not beloved I will call 'beloved.'"
Rom 9:26 "And in the very place where it was said to them, 'You are not my people,' there they will be called 'sons of the living God.'"
Rom 9:27 And Isaiah cries out concerning Israel: "Though the number of the sons of Israel be as the sand of the sea, only a remnant of them will be saved,
Rom 9:28 for the Lord will carry out his sentence upon the earth fully and without delay."
Rom 9:29 And as Isaiah predicted, "If the Lord of hosts had not left us offspring, we would have been like Sodom and become like Gomorrah."
Rom 9:30 What shall we say, then? That Gentiles who did not pursue righteousness have attained it, that is, a righteousness that is by faith;
Rom 9:31 but that Israel who pursued a law that would lead to righteousness did not succeed in reaching that law.
Rom 9:32 Why? Because they did not pursue it by faith, but as if it were based on works. They have stumbled over the stumbling stone,
Rom 9:33 as it is written, "Behold, I am laying in Zion a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offense; and whoever believes in him will not be put to shame."
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